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HarveyBirdman

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Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
1,044
The Codex does not have a thread dedicated to TES lore. I'm extremely disappointed, legitimately shocked, and frankly saddened that nobody here has thought to discuss TES lore in depth.
  • Why disappointed? Because quality discussion has a home here, and this particular quality discussion has not yet found its home here.
  • Why shocked? Because although the Codex is full of average IQ mongoloids, I thought you would have picked up this topic long ago.
  • Why saddened? Because you're missing out, and you don't deserve to miss out.
Questionable to poor game design choices aside, TES has the most unique, thought-provoking, and literati-quality lore of any RPG. It's not even a contest. And yet, the Codex seems strangely unaware of just how deep the rabbit hole goes. This thread is for all the Alices of the Codex -- jump on in.

Delving into TES lore isn't possible via writing some opinion piece explanation. The only way to understand it is through discussion. So here is a simple, recent, and easily accessible launchpad discussion:

Of the three main humanoid entities in Skyrim, who holds moral superiority -- the Empire, the Stormcloaks, or the Aldmeri Dominion?

I argue in favor of the Stormcloaks, because they are unwittingly fighting for the existence of Nirn. True to their ideological origins as the Aldmer progeny of certain Old Ehlnofey, the Aldmeri Dominion wants to unmake the world. Talos is the greatest benefactor to maintaining Nirn's existence. Outlawing Talos worship could conceivably remove Talos from existence altogether via mythopoeia. (Though, it's probably impossible to remove Talos from existence, because he achieved CHIM and is a living divine, so he is therefore aware of himself. BUT, his power would be considerably less without worshippers or at least acknowledgement.)

By allowing the Aldmeri Dominion to outlaw Talos worship, the Empire has placed itself in a position of weakness from which it cannot recover without military victory. Furthermore, lessening Talos's power invariably lessens the power of men in general (as an ideology of mannishness), because Talos emphatically intervenes on their behalf through his mantling of Shor.

The Stormcloaks are correct, although they don't know it, because they fight to preserve Talos's worship, and thus Nirn itself.

Which leads to a larger series of questions. Is Nirn worth preserving? Was LKHN wrong, right, or neither?
 
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HarveyBirdman

Arbiter
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Jan 5, 2019
Messages
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It's essentially the same question. Also a more boring one, because Skyrim is generally shallow. Very few minute conflicts are worth discussing. The large scale events are epic (in the poetic sense) if you dig deeply enough, but only matter because they stand on the shoulders of far superior entries to the series.

But anyway, because the question is the same, the answer is accordingly the identical. Gray-Mane due to their unwitting support of creation itself as opposed to Battleborn's unwitting support of their own destruction.
 

Wunderbar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Messages
8,814
It was kinda interesting in Morrowind. Then, just like games, it declined hard.
Get Michael Kirkbride back!
 

Yosharian

Arcane
Joined
May 28, 2018
Messages
9,477
Location
Grand Chien
26065.jpg


It's the hero of Kvatch!
 

Commissar Draco

Codexia Comrade Colonel Commissar
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Messages
20,856
Location
Привислинский край
Insert Title Here Strap Yourselves In Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Divinity: Original Sin 2
why did the bethesda abandon the established canon of all dark elf women being massive sluts????

??

fedora.png


Because slut shaming is seen as bad in modern west and there is no escape from SJW ''values'' in current year even in fiction. They are going to ancient history and myths rewriting it too after all Comrade so changing fiction to bolt all escape routes is only logical. As to Stormcucks they fight the Empire of Men when the next war with Dominion is eminent if you ask General Tulius and moreove
r in the Altmeri Embassy there is Ultfric dossier in which he is described as their agent although uncooperative since Markham incident he is still classified as their asset since continuation of civil war is in interest of Dominion, with indirect aid provided when needed and possible like in Helgen when Altemeris arrived to save Ulfrick neck.
So those hole Stormcucks are as legitimate resistance as AQ and ISIS are.
 

HarveyBirdman

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Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
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It was kinda interesting in Morrowind. Then, just like games, it declined hard.
Get Michael Kirkbride back!
Kirkbride wrote the Mythic Dawn Commentaries, Mankar Camoran's speech at the end of the main quest, and the Knights of the Nine DLC. All of which are massive chunks of lore, and all of which are fascinating.
He also penned a lot of the concepts that got into Skyrim, like the entire Nordic pantheon, Atmora as a place literally without time, the nature of Talos's divinity, Ysgramor and the 500 compaions... I could go on.
Kirkbride remains hugely influential, and every one of his ideas that Bethesda incorporates ends up turning to gold. And when they skirt around his ideas, the result ends up being shitty and underdeveloped. It'd be best if Bethesda hired him back on full-time, and gave him creative control over all lore.
why did the bethesda abandon the established canon of all dark elf women being massive sluts????

??
Because fat decline.
But we always have loverslab. So incline?
 
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Quillon

Arcane
Joined
Dec 15, 2016
Messages
5,216
You can't have a legitimate discussion about The Elder Scrolls lore with anybody unless they understand CHIM. The ending of the words is ALMSIVI

Well umn, you know, that, you can't have a legitimate discussion about anything with anybody unless they understand FGHJKL. The ending of the words is QWERTY
 

ColonelTeacup

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,433
The Codex does not have a thread dedicated to TES lore. I'm extremely disappointed, legitimately shocked, and frankly saddened that nobody here has thought to discuss TES lore in depth.
  • Why disappointed? Because quality discussion has a home here, and this particular quality discussion has not yet found its home here.
  • Why shocked? Because although the Codex is full of average IQ mongoloids, I thought you would have picked up this topic long ago.
  • Why saddened? Because you're missing out, and you don't deserve to miss out.
Questionable to poor game design choices aside, TES has the most unique, thought-provoking, and literati-quality lore of any RPG. It's not even a contest. And yet, the Codex seems strangely unaware of just how deep the rabbit hole goes. This thread is for all the Alices of the Codex -- jump on in.

Delving into TES lore isn't possible via writing some opinion piece explanation. The only way to understand it is through discussion. So here is a simple, recent, and easily accessible launchpad discussion:

Of the three main humanoid entities in Skyrim, who holds moral superiority -- the Empire, the Stormcloaks, or the Aldmeri Dominion?

I argue in favor of the Stormcloaks, because they are unwittingly fighting for the existence of Nirn. True to their ideological origins as the Aldmer progeny of certain Old Ehlnofey, the Aldmeri Dominion wants to unmake the world. Talos is the greatest benefactor to maintaining Nirn's existence. Outlawing Talos worship could conceivably remove Talos from existence altogether via mythopoeia. (Though, it's probably impossible to remove Talos from existence, because he achieved CHIM and is a living divine, so he is therefore aware of himself. BUT, his power would be considerably less without worshippers or at least acknowledgement.)

By allowing the Aldmeri Dominion to outlaw Talos worship, the Empire has placed itself in a position of weakness from which it cannot recover without military victory. Furthermore, lessening Talos's power invariably lessens the power of men in general (as an ideology of mannishness), because Talos emphatically intervenes on their behalf through his mantling of Shor.

The Stormcloaks are correct, although they don't know it, because they fight to preserve Talos's worship, and thus Nirn itself.

Which leads to a larger series of questions. Is Nirn worth preserving? Was LKHN wrong, right, or neither?
I would like bethesda or an offshoot dev company focus a plotline on the hist, to discover if they're actually from a previous kalpa, or are really just sentient hiveminded treefolk that evolved naturally on nirn, and consequently created the argonians for the purposes of manual labor and protection.
Also, I hope that the mobile game bethesda is creating that is a dungeon crawler, will be based in direnni tower, which is said to burrow deeply into the earth as well as the sky, and is one of the keystones to maintaining creation.
 

HarveyBirdman

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
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26065.jpg


It's the hero of Kvatch!
You found me
LKAFH7E.jpg

I would like bethesda or an offshoot dev company focus a plotline on the hist, to discover if they're actually from a previous kalpa, or are really just sentient hiveminded treefolk that evolved naturally on nirn, and consequently created the argonians for the purposes of manual labor and protection.
Also, I hope that the mobile game bethesda is creating that is a dungeon crawler, will be based in direnni tower, which is said to burrow deeply into the earth as well as the sky, and is one of the keystones to maintaining creation.
I've heard that the Hist are supposed to come from another Dream altogether -- they're (likely) malicious invaders from an entirely different Godhead. I'd need to find a source on that though.
As for the Blades game, I have no hope it will be anything other than mindless. It's a mobile game. TES: Candy Crush.
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

Self-Ejected
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
2,009
Of the three main humanoid entities in Skyrim, who holds moral superiority -- the Empire, the Stormcloaks, or the Aldmeri Dominion?

I don't know about the deep lore of TES, but when you sided the Empire or Stormcloaks, and afterwards asked some of the common people what has changed for them: they told you nothing changed. The common people did not gain anything regardless who remained in power. Exactly like in real life. Politicians only caring about themselves, doing whatever needs to be done to maintain their power and get the big moneyz in their own pockets, while the common people still struggle in their daily lives.
 

ColonelTeacup

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,433
Of the three main humanoid entities in Skyrim, who holds moral superiority -- the Empire, the Stormcloaks, or the Aldmeri Dominion?

I don't know about the deep lore of TES, but when you sided the Empire or Stormcloaks, and afterwards asked some of the common people what has changed for them: they told you nothing changed. The common people did not gain anything regardless who remained in power. Exactly like in real life. Politicians only caring about themselves, doing whatever needs to be done to maintain their power and get the big moneyz in their own pockets, while the common people still struggle in their daily lives.
The thalmor attacks on talos faithful should stop at least. It's mentioned a few times, there's a quest or two and iirc one unmarked quest of thalmor hunting for talos worshippers. Going so far as to wear an amulet of him will have them kill you.
Also, I think he was referring to the moral highground for war, which would obviously be skyrim, though whether or not it's a good idea or not militarily and tactically is another can of worms altogether, especially if you subscribe to the idea that the thalmor are trying to undo creation by destroying the towers, of which talos happens to be, being the mantled manifestation of lorkhan, or at least occupying his seat in the pantheon of deities.
 

HarveyBirdman

Arbiter
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
1,044
Of the three main humanoid entities in Skyrim, who holds moral superiority -- the Empire, the Stormcloaks, or the Aldmeri Dominion?

I don't know about the deep lore of TES, but when you sided the Empire or Stormcloaks, and afterwards asked some of the common people what has changed for them: they told you nothing changed. The common people did not gain anything regardless who remained in power. Exactly like in real life. Politicians only caring about themselves, doing whatever needs to be done to maintain their power and get the big moneyz in their own pockets, while the common people still struggle in their daily lives.
That's not quite right. For one, under Stormcloak rule, people can worship Talos in the open. Without Stormcloak rule, people had to worship Talos in secret, or risk getting taken away to a Thalmor prison camp for torture.
On the flipside, Siding with the Empire means the Dunmer in Windhelm are no longer quite as second class citizens.
But you're right that the game doesn't really have C&C. Bethesda really squandered a lot of good ideas here. The more fleshed out stuff remains on the epic scale.

Also, I think he was referring to the moral highground for war, which would obviously be skyrim, though whether or not it's a good idea or not militarily and tactically is another can of worms altogether, especially if you subscribe to the idea that the thalmor are trying to undo creation by destroying the towers, of which talos happens to be, being the mantled manifestation of lorkhan, or at least occupying his seat in the pantheon of deities.
Devil's advocate: even if the Thalmor are trying to unmake Mundus, and if the existence of Mundus is a moral good worth preserving, then do the Stormcloak's means justify the ends?
 
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ColonelTeacup

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 19, 2017
Messages
1,433
Of the three main humanoid entities in Skyrim, who holds moral superiority -- the Empire, the Stormcloaks, or the Aldmeri Dominion?

I don't know about the deep lore of TES, but when you sided the Empire or Stormcloaks, and afterwards asked some of the common people what has changed for them: they told you nothing changed. The common people did not gain anything regardless who remained in power. Exactly like in real life. Politicians only caring about themselves, doing whatever needs to be done to maintain their power and get the big moneyz in their own pockets, while the common people still struggle in their daily lives.
That's not quite right. For one, under Stormcloak rule, people can worship Talos in the open. Without Stormcloak rule, people had to worship Talos in secret, or risk getting taken away to a Thalmor prison camp for torture.
On the flipside, Siding with the Empire means the Dunmer in Windhelm are no longer quite as second class citizens.
But you're right that the game doesn't really have C&C. Bethesda really squandered a lot of good ideas here. The more fleshed out stuff remains on the epic scale.

Also, I think he was referring to the moral highground for war, which would obviously be skyrim, though whether or not it's a good idea or not militarily and tactically is another can of worms altogether, especially if you subscribe to the idea that the thalmor are trying to undo creation by destroying the towers, of which talos happens to be, being the mantled manifestation of lorkhan, or at least occupying his seat in the pantheon of deities.
Devil's advocate: even if the Thalmor are trying to unmake Mundus, and if the existence of Mundus is a moral good worth preserving, then do the Stormcloak's means justify the ends?
Yes. The stormcloaks means are simple revolution. It's not as if they're recruiting children as shock troops or employing biological warfare, theyre fighting in the customary nord way. Additionally, the empire broke the feudal contract between itself and many of its other provinces when the white gold concordat was signed, making seperation and outright revolt completely justified.
 

HarveyBirdman

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Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
1,044
But if the ends result in destroying the Empire, then maybe it's not worth it. Can Skyrim hope to mount a successful offense, or even defense, against the Thalmor alone? Maybe it would have been better to continue worshipping Talos in secret.
 

Stella Brando

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
9,011
There used to be a developed lore for Tamriel.

Cyrodiil used to be kind of half-Aztec half-Chinese.

But they ignored it because fantasy = stone castles and green fields.
 

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,264
Superpowers are Aldmeri and Empire. Why not Argonians too? They annexed half Morrowind after all while empire failed even to save their puppets Hlaalu.
 

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